Recruiting Is a Two-Way Street for Joe Macchione

Nicole: Okay. Hey, everyone, and welcome to CCM Talks. I’m your host, Nicole Perrone. And today I’m here with the one and only Joe Mac, as he’s known. Joe, welcome to CCM Talks.  

Joe: Thanks for having me. I appreciate the call.  

Nicole: I’m so excited to interview you today. We were talking briefly about just the audience. Right. And, you know, our CCM team, our recruiters, our loan officers, and obviously also, people that might be interested in coming to CrossCountry at some point in their career. 

Joe: A lot to it.  

Nicole: So, I think I’m going to learn a little bit from Joe today.  

Joe: I don’t think so. I think we’re going to collaborate on this one.  

Nicole: I hope so. So Joe, let’s get right into it. As you’ve taken on a bigger role here at CrossCountry, from a recruiting perspective, what’s the first thing that you look for in a potential hire? 

Joe: Wow. You know, I talk to a lot of people, and I got to find that coachable person, a person that knows what they’re doing. They understand the borrower experience. They’ve kind of created their own process in their mind. They’re able to explain it, but they’re malleable. They’re open to change. They’re open to learning. They’re not sitting there blaming and finding all the excuses why it didn’t work out at the last shop. 

That’s a big piece for me. Is the coach ability piece. And also just that, that aspiration for for excellence. I think there are a lot of people that are looking for more. I mean, that’s what the conversations about. And so are they open to that level of trust and willing to adapt in their approach. 

Nicole: It’s like you could have all the talent in the world, but if you’re, if you’re, a train wreck, that’s not a that’s not a good sign at all.  

Joe: Very true.  

Nicole: How are you going deeper with the candidate to kind of uncover some of that to to kind of make sure they’re a good cultural fit here?  

Joe: So I’m my approach may be very vastly different than others. I want to take the time. So like my first conversation with that person is generally an hour and a half. And that’s because I really go into it two ears, one mouth for a reason. And I want to really hear the whole story. Like I want to hear the background. What did they do before the business? And everybody’s got their own funny story of how they got into this business. 

But when you listen to all of those approaches, you find who is the immigrant who came here at six and didn’t know the language, and who was the construction worker who wanted to change for his family. Right. And when you hear those stories, you you take it all in and then you understand, well, why did you move from this place to the next? Like, what were you missing? Each time I get something out of each piece and adaptable level. So for me, it’s taking that time to create trust. I feel like in our business today, right? We’re so data driven.  

Nicole: Yes.  

Joe: That, you just it’s not a transaction, but we almost create recruiting as a transaction, and it’s a relationship. It’s it’s that person not only trusting you, but trusting that the company is going to be able to help protect their brand. That’s really a big piece of it is brand protection.  

Nicole: Yeah. I, I couldn’t agree more. I think I don’t think there’s anything more important than building that personal relationship with a candidate. You know, you want that person to trust you. You want to trust them and you want to make sure it’s a good fit. Which is really important both ways.It’s you know, I always tell people that it’s it’s really critical that you feel this is the right move for you.  

Joe: So true.  

Nicole: So what would you say makes CCM’s recruiting culture a bit different from our competition?  

Joe: So I always overuse the saying that you become the average of five people who spend the most time with. And, and that really resonates here. I find it, everybody’s striving for it. You know, Ron always uses the whole iron sharpens iron. It’s so true. I look at just our team. I look at the operational approach. Look at your team. Right. Like the depth from stern to bow, having somebody come in to that network, that level leadership, everyone rolling up their sleeves, digging in to help fix a problem. It doesn’t exist anywhere else.  

So, like that fit the, the counter to it is you can really see somebody stand out for the wrong reasons when they come here. And we all have made bad hire, right?  

Nicole: Yes.  

Joe: And so you could see that person like a sore thumb, a sore thumb. And that really shows you culture like that shows you the culture fit. That needs to be here. Striving for more, I think is a big thing here. Entrepreneurial spirit is a big thing amongst the team, right? The, you know, people want to be led. They want to know that there’s somebody there on the other end of the phone or in their office to help them get through a challenging day, but they really need to know stern to bow like that team is is deep. And I think all the teams here, yours is a company inside of this company. Right. So make you guys great. CCM powered. And that is that’s a big difference. Big difference.  

Nicole: I love that you know powered by CrossCountry Mortgage. Like it really is a company that’s, it’s I always say it’s it’s led by a loan officer for a loan officer. You gotta love the coach of the team that you work for. We have an incredible coach here. And you know, when I think about just the support level, like you said, that’s that’s such a standout. I mean, and it’s one of the things that most people, when they’re thinking about making a move, it’s support. Right. Is that what you’re normally seeing when you’re talking to candidates that they’re missing? Would you say that’s the predominant?  

Joe: You know, supports a tough word for it, right. Like everyone feels like, oh, if I just support in my opinion is reactive. Right? Leadership is different. Like, leadership is like being able to figure out what you’re missing, the puzzle pieces you’re missing and come to you before you come to me. 

And I feel like a lot of the teams here are are well poised in knowing that that’s what they need to do to be of service. And that’s really the difference is what am I doing to be of service to my team?  

Nicole: Wow. You know what? That really stood out to me just now because the reality is, is support is a little bit it can be a little bit reactive. Right. And so it’s that proactive leadership. So if somebody is out there looking for a place to be where someone’s actually going to take a proactive approach to helping them achieve their goals. That’s that’s huge. So tell me how how do you spot a potential in someone that maybe hasn’t quite hit their stride yet and help them grow?  

Joe: They all have the ingredients, right? There’s just some. So maybe they do have a great cadence and a great process, and they’re missing a couple of the pieces. More repetitions. Right. You know, those doing a couple loans a month are not going to thrive here. So to get them to that five, six, ten loans is figuring out which of those puzzle pieces are missing. 

And it’s not as simple as just like price and products. I mean, we have competitive prices. We have every single product, but it’s all those intangibles that surround it that you’re going to find along the assembly line. There’s something that broke down for them and they’re just having the they’re fumbling and they’re having to go back to that one puzzle piece, and they’re just not comfortable getting out off the assembly line enough to say, well, now I’m going to go pick up another agent and another referral partner and a builder partner. And so getting those fundamental pieces built, they have, you know, if they don’t have any of the process built, we’re passing right.  

Nicole: We can’t do much to help them.  

Joe: Right. You’re not going to pull them up the hill.  

Nicole: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because I think that a lot of sales organizations don’t actually have, true leadership and support in the sense where they’re trying to help you get to where you’re going. It’s just, hey, get to where you need to go, right? And if you’re not like you’re doing something wrong, rather than grabbing someone by the hand and really helping them come up with, with a game plan.  

Joe: You know, it’s interesting. You think about, like, your team, right? We’ve talked about companies inside of companies. If you think about our company, we don’t have a sales. We don’t have sales layers, right? There’s no head of sales. No sales department. Right. That leaves us all being locational focused on what’s going to help our team. 

I feel, and I always joke that at CCM, vanilla is different in every zip code. That’s because all of our teams are different. Ron respects that we are taking the approach of we’re experts in our markets and our regions and our fields, and he’s relying on us to kind of drive that that excellence.  

Nicole: Drive that ability. You know, if you could speak to as I’m listening to you, I’m thinking about the other recruiters that are here at CrossCountry Mortgage. When you think about leading leaders, growing leaders, what would you say are some of the key components to how you can help a leader grow into their role, into their recruiting role here at CrossCountry? 

Joe: So I’ll start with the negative. You can’t be everything to everyone. And I feel like there are a lot of people that think they’ll just convert that loan officer who’s at the wrong place, doing the wrong things into being something different here. And so it starts with create your own vision, create your own mission, and that’s it. And clearly define it, clearly enunciate it, clearly communicate it.  

And when you do that, it’s going to be very clear what your mission and vision is. And if it’s not a fit, it’s not fit, right. It doesn’t mean you’re not malleable enough to say, I can’t adapt. And I’m looking in the rearview instead the windshield. But being able to prove out that you have a mission, this is what your team looks like and not obviating. 

Nicole: Where’s that flag? Like you’re planning that flag in the sand and you’re leading your team there. And that’s the direction. And I think that’s really what resonates, right? They say a lot of people, when they leave a company, they leave because of their manager, not necessarily because of the company. So what tips could you give us, Joe, around retention. 

Joe: That’s the I mean, retention is the best form of recruiting isn’t it?  

Nicole: Yes it is.  

Joe: And I know that on your team, my my former team, less than 1% attrition.  

Nicole: That’s incredible.  

Joe: That’s not the the, typically it’s 30 to 40%. Right. It starts with again trying to be everything to everybody. So forget about that approach. This is what I have to deliver. Deliver more, find those open ends where there’s solutions that can be had, growth like we had from it. And I think the rest will come.  

Nicole: Yeah. You really need to take that approach with the people on your team figuring out, you know, what’s going well, what’s not going well and and how can I support you? It’s kind of like that servant leadership perspective a little bit, right where it’s, you know, I’m here to to bring you wherever you’re looking to go. But I think having those conversations are really important for for leaders here.  

Joe: Yeah, you’re right.  

Nicole: So you know, recruiting retaining obviously, you know, being that leader that kind of set your own tone, so to speak. I think those are really great tips for, for us to all use what what’s a recruiting red flag that you’ve kind of learned the hard way? Give us a good story.  

Joe: We’ve had a few of those, haven’t we.  

Nicole: Yeah.  

Joe: Not willing to listen. You know that that two ears and one mouth for a reason. I always ask what’s gone wrong in the process. So tell me something that’s broken down on a loan. A month, a quarter at your current company. When they can’t respond with them having made any mistake along that process, it’s pretty evident that that’s a little bit of a red flag, right? They’re always looking for the blame game.  

I’ve made mistakes and ignored it. So for me it’s always leading with my head, my heart, leading with my gut. And you know what’s right and what’s wrong and, and not taking chances. I mean, it’s not we can’t be the fly trap for everyone that wants to have a heartbeat in $1 million a month in production. That’s just not a way to build this company now.  

Nicole: And it’s hard. As a recruiter, obviously, you want to you want to bring on as many people as you can. You know, every million probably adds up. You know, we’re talking about people building their teams, but it cost you could cost you a lot. Bringing the wrong person, a lot more than it could yield. 

Joe: It could. Yeah. You’re right.  

Nicole: Absolutely. What do you think motivates loan officers most when you’re when you’re getting to know them or you’re taking that, two ears, one mouth type approach is is it money? Is it mission? Is it culture? What do you seeing?  

Joe: I think it’s all three.  

Nicole: Yeah. And there you go. I answer my own question.  

Joe: I think I think it starts with reputation. So if you can protect my brand. That’s going to drive money. Mission is obvious, right. Like leaders have to roll their sleeves up. Fix fix problems, find solutions and culture will come with it. I think you provide that mission. You protect my brand. Money’s going to come.  

Nicole: Yeah. That’s a that’s great input. I think, you know, we’re in such a different environment today than we were. I mean, you’ve been in the business a long time, growing your own successful company and growing a successful enterprise here at CrossCountry. But so much has changed the shift in culture and technology. When you think about leaders building teams today in this shifting market, is there is there anything that’s kind of changed for you when you’re thinking about your approach or your conversations with candidates around that? 

Joe: Yeah, I believe the key is we have some amazing things that this company, right. And I find we all put the blinders on and focus on the way we do business. And so it’s identifying what they don’t even know they’re missing. Like the easy stuff upfront you’re going to learn during the recruiting process. Right. Oh I’m missing on my closings. Not getting taken care of on commissions. Those are the easy tangibles.  

When you listen to all of it and you can actually point them to things that they’re missing, like all of our teammates have grown their business by 20% by focusing on Non-QM. And they’re like, well I can’t do Non-QM here, it’s all brokered out. And and when you can identify to them how they can have that as a pick up here. And the myriad of other things here the, the tack and the all of it. I think that’s a when you see that wake up call for them and you’ve solved something they didn’t even think they were coming here to solve. That’s a, that’s a eureka moment.  

Nicole: That’s big. Yeah. And I and I think about that I love that you brought up Non-QM. Because really I think Pete said one out of every 25 loans today is Non-QM. That wasn’t the case a few years back. Right? It’s it’s so as the environment changes, you need to change as a player. Right. But but your team needs to change too. And I find oftentimes I don’t know if you’re seeing this, but that loan officers and leaders are outgrowing, they’re outpacing the firms that they’re with. Right. They’re changing faster than the companies are.  

Joe: It’s an excellent point. And you probably hear this every day. Well, I like being the big fish in the small pond. And now all of a sudden, when you can convey to them that that’s stunting their growth, because the fish is only going to grow so big. That’s that, that’s that moment that you, you capture when and I think it leads to success down the line with retention as well. Doing the same thing.  

Nicole: Yeah I actually want to talk to that, that person that’s out there today that is that big fish in the, in the small pond that and because I would say that’s probably one of the number one objections that I see. Right. And I and I always say like, would you, would you if everyone had an iPhone, why would you go sell a BlackBerry? You know, no, no one wants to use. Well, there’s a reason why everyone has an iPhone.  

Joe: Very true.  

Nicole: There’s a reason why we employ more top originators on the Scotsman Guide than any other retail distributed lender. The reason why we’re the number one retail lender in the country. So it’s interesting, though, to to break down that mindset and think about other leaders here. You know, it’s it’s one of those things where I think a rising tide lifts all ships to some extent. Right.  

And what would you say to that person that’s, you know, they’re at a company today. That company’s top producer does $50 million, you know, smaller company, let’s say. And they’re and they’re, they’re, they’re like, I’m going to be the first guy that does $100 million. You know, if it’s not if the system’s not there today, you know, how is it going to be there tomorrow? How are you going to be the one person to crack the code?  

So I think the systems here are set to help you grow and scale and build your business. What would you say to that person about listening or, you know, exploring trying to understand because they want to hit their goals. We want them to hit them too.  

Joe: You know what I feel like a lot of times we’re on these calls with, with potentials, and we feel like we have such limited time that we have to lead with promises. Right? I think the key is proven, showing the proof. You said it. Top company, as far as the number of top loan officers, distributed retail. That’s proof. Right.  

And you prove to them, the teammates that you’ve gotten from 20 to 40 million, 40 to 80, 80 to 160, have one person on their team. Now they have five. That’s proof. And I think we lead with promises because, listen, we think of that as being a great thing that we’re the number one retail company. Most people think of that as well that’s your Achilles heel because you don’t get things done. There’s no way you could. You have to just be a number. You’re one of 3,000, right?  

Nicole: It actually turns out the the opposite of what you’re trying to prove.  

Joe: Right. So like getting away from that and actually you have to show the proof you can’t talk to promise.  

Nicole: That’s that’s absolutely a great point because you know you don’t you don’t want to just kind of oversimplify it so to speak. Right. You know you want someone to understand that I think we all got into this business because we don’t want ceilings on our success. We don’t want limits.  

But there are these imposed, almost invisible barriers and limitations that other companies do inherently kind of put on their team members. How can you start spotting that as a loan officer today that’s at another company? How how can you start spotting like, hey, I think, I don’t think this place is keeping up with me.  

Joe: Well, you’re hearing that a lot. I don’t even think it’s just spotting it. I think they’re spotting it themselves. Right. So now you are starting to hear, because I believe that you think about, like, ten years ago, right? Even if you were at the wrong place, your agents, your referral partners, your borrowers, we believe in you. And now what you’re seeing is the agents who are very desperate for a win are recognizing, well, you you just said you’re not the right place. And so you don’t even know you’ve lost that referral partner. They’re going somewhere else that has a better products.  

And so I think now the loan officers are starting to recognize the cream is not only rising to the top amongst them, but amongst companies. And that puts us in a great and puts us in a great spot.  

Nicole: It does. That was one of the very interesting points of feedback that a lot of people I brought here saw was, oh, I’m glad you’re you’re there now. Right. And it was actually unanticipated because you don’t really pulse check your referral partners, you know, hey, what do you what do you think about this? I know you like me, but what do you think about this company I work for? Are you bought on that too? Right.  

Joe, I’m so happy that you were able to come join us today. Is there anything else that you want to leave us with? Our leaders, potential loan officers out there?  

Joe: I, I first of all, I appreciate the time, too. And it makes it, I love the collaboration. It’s a hard grind, right? And, I think chin up and shoulder to plow every day is the only way we all get through it. And, just do right by your people. Be of service to your people. Listen. Act with humility. You’ll win, you’ll win everyday.  

Nicole: Well you seem like an incredible person to work for.  

Joe: Thank you.  

Nicole: I’m very happy that we’re here together. And, for those of you tuning in to to CCM Talks, thank you for listening. If you’re a leader or you’re a recruiter here, get out there, reach out to any of us, right, for advice or help. We’re here to help you. And if you’re someone out there today that’s thinking about a change, thinking about something different, I’d say you owe it to yourself to explore. You can, you can reach out to us directly at any time. All the information will be here for you.